It's time lily-livered Europe stood up to Muslim bigots

It is the indolence of the west which is Islamist's greatest weapon against it. Laws, many of great age, should be upheld without fear or favour. Schooling should be secular. Those that do not or cannot fit in with the values and ideals of an open pluralist society should leave. Assistance to leave should be considered.

Posted by Barry Larking at 8:58am on May 5, 2009

What an amazingly over-reacting article. Even bordering on unwarranted racism. Talk about taking a few isolated incidents and blowing them out of proportion. I have lived in Texas, the UK, Holland and Sweden and I have found many Islamic people in all three, and have befriended some of them. I can say I've seen a little of the isolation you speak of, but this is the minority case. The vast majority of these immigrants are keen to learn the language and find a place in their new society, but without losing their roots. (quite understandably, wouldn't you say?) And if we are going to have a Pluralist society like the vast majority of 'Europeans' want then you must accept Islam as you ask them to respect your society. You can't have your cake and eat it too. The most annoying thing about this article is that the main premise is misguided. There is no European identity. That's why Europe is made up of peoples from many different countries it doesn't exist. And talking of the spirit of WWII as a time when Europeans knew their identity is just ridiculous. That was a time when nations knew who they were and that they wanted to destroy each other. This is quite a disappointing article from what is usually a well balanced website.

Posted by Andrew Caldwell at 10:19am on May 5, 2009

What a timely and sensible article. I've been writing on this issue for years [I first attacked multiculturalism in the eighties as a potentially disastrously racist creed of the political elite that was creating ethnic ghettoes], and seen the few who have tried to point out what was happening labelled as racists. And I've watched as rabid Islamist hate-mongers have railed against our liberal democracy whilst defending their 'human rights' with the help of the human rights lobby, using liberal democracy's freedoms against it. Our long-fought-for animal welfare laws are thrown away because they conflict with Muslims barbaric halal method of killing animals, as well as all of the women's rights mentioned here. Yet the cry of Islamophobia goes up whenever anyone attempts to highlight what we are losing. The bearded mullahs with their glittering eyes are waiting their chance to change more of our society, aided and abetted by the Christian loonies who think it's an attack on religion and they should all stand together, little understanding that their religion is as anathema to Muslims as liberal atheism, despite churches being burned in Islamic countries like Pakistan giving a clue. The vociferous and deranged attitude towards critics who attempt to sound an alarm means that only the extreme right now do so, and, whereas the political elite fail to see the dangers of gradual erosion of everything we hold dear, the working class don't, and they are beginning to embrace the BNP as the only people who speak the truth and aren't afraid of Muslims, a very dangerous development. This is why home-grown terrorists are now as much a threat as foreign ones; they have been born and raised in the UK without any sense of Britishness or allegiance to our country, they look on somewhere else as 'home' and their avowed aim is the take over and Islamicise Britain. Already all children in state schools, and all prisoners in UK jails are given halal meat since it avoids having to have separate menus - that's millions of animals hung up to bleed to death. Slowly they are changing our society with the connivance of the chatterati who think they are being terribly non-racist, but who are in fact deeply racist by not insisting on the same standards from all. But Ayaan Hirsi Ali is wrong that all Europeans would fail to defend their country, the tide is turning, the working people haven't been fooled [including many previous immigrants who had to jump through hoops to become British citizens] and if things don't change soon, the extreme right will gain power and Europe will see mass removals of Muslims to their 'home' countries. Andrew Caldwell displays all the characteristics of the chatterati I've been talking about, has utterly failed to understand the article - written by a Muslim-raised woman remember - and trots out the same old platitudes '... vast majority of these immigrants are keen to learn the language and find a place in their new society...' which suggest that he has little actual knowledge of the Islamic neighbourhoods where English is rarely spoken. He asks 'are we going to have a pluralist society?' but we already have one, it's the taking over of our pluralist society by extreme, fascistic non-pluralist religionistas that's concerning so many. His attack comes close to the usual abuse of argument which labels criticism as racism in an attempt to shut it down, even trying to exert pressure on The First Post to avoid articles like this in future if it doesn't want to disappoint people like him.

Posted by Peter Simmons at 11:21am on May 5, 2009

Unfortunately, the article is not 'over-reacting'. Has Andrew Caldwell thought that the Islamic people he has befriended may not have told him everything? Some years ago I became quite close to a family from Pakistan. I was able to help them with some problems they had. They had been in the UK for years, their children born here, and were, on the surface, well integrated, although they had been subjected to racist attacks here which had destroyed their business and health. He was a religious man in the gentle way that an elderly parish priest or vicar might be religious, and we spent many hours discussing religion in a very civilized way. He told me he was sorry that I was not a Muslim, because at the last day I would go to hell. However, I would have a last chance to convert, unlike the Jews, who would go straight to hell without the choice. He believed quite sincerely that Christianity in Europe was a temporary aberration and that eventually we would all see Jesus as just another prophet and join Islam. I'm not in touch with the family now, as they moved away within the UK to live with other family members, but if we were to bump into each other today we would still, I hope, be good close friends. I have also lived, and worked, in Sweden, and worked for shorter periods in Spain and Germany. I have family in Italy. I feel much closer in culture to my friends in all these European countries than to my good friend from Pakistan (and other acquaintances from Bangla Desh and India). My friend was a gentle, elderly man who knew the UK well, but even he did not want to put roots down in a Western culture until it had converted to Islam. I fear that Ayaan Hirsi Ali is right, though I wish it were not so.

Posted by Michael MacKian at 11:38am on May 5, 2009

I cannot agree with Mr Caldwell. For me the article is pertinent and well written. Congratulations Ms Ayaan Hirsi Ali. My support is for the Danes. Any religion that takes itself so seriously deserves ridicule. What is religion other than a set of beliefs promoted by clever people to help (and probably control) less clever people, citing the existance of a god (or gods depending upon which religious flavour one prefers) that shows no sign of existing. Let's be realistic. Believe, if you like the message and / or the community, but dont' expect others to follow suit. The religions that have my respect are those not touched by mockery.

Posted by Oliverjames at 11:52am on May 5, 2009

Oh dear, I seem to have logged into the outer reaches of the Daily Mail. The article really is mad - but because it's written by one of them effniks - anything goes. I really do feel sorry for the poor lady whatever her problems are. Also well done on attracting the usual loons and bigots to the First Post. Used to be a good site.

Posted by Fitzrovia at 12:49pm on May 5, 2009

Great article, Islam is a threat to all Western democracies. Islam can not and has never co-existed with others in a peaceful environment. Islam mean 'submission' and that is exactly what muslims wish to do to the West and all non-believers. Islam teaches that there are two house; the house of Islam and the house of war. As kaffirs (non-believers) they the muslims are able to make war with us in the name of allah, totally permissiable in the Koran. We should not give them one inch as they are the most intolerant people on earth, they will stop at nothing to change a civilised nation into an aggressive third world caliphate of hate. I recommend that concerned Europeans get politically active, join pro-national Political parties, a vote for Labour or even the Tories is a vote for the bankrupt status quo.

Posted by Nicholas Folkes at 1:18pm on May 5, 2009

Is the word "effnik" as used by Fitzrovia supposed to be a PC substitute for some more juicy term of racial abuse? And does he mean to imply by his comment that this courageous lady's freedom of speech is somehow the prerogative of her colour? And does he further mean to imply that he is not a loon and a bigot? You couldn't make it up!

Posted by Paul Hirsh at 4:08pm on May 5, 2009

Excellent article, highlighting some real problems for moderate western democracy. We need to "respect" Islam but militant muslims do not respect us, our values or our laws. They are quite happy to take advantage of the tolerance they are afforded in Europe to work against the nations that offer them homes; as the author says, their first allegiance is to their religion. We are already seeing the future where UK judges recommend allowing some issues to be dealt with within the muslim community in Sharia courts. Thirty years from now I do not want my daughter to be barred from education, forced to wear hijab, prevented from working or voting, to be beaten or killed by her husband as is allowed in Sharia law. As Ali writes, what have we rationalists got to compete against the rage and conviction that muslims display when we offend their sensibilities?

Posted by Polsonby at 4:21pm on May 5, 2009

I am an American/UK citizen who has lived in Europe since the early seventies and can only say that those of you who don't believe this article are not in touch with reality. Islamists only think of other Islamists and want the conversion or eternal damnation of others. I have befriended several followers of Islam, so-called moderates, and to a man they are not the friends of people of other religions. They cannot be. Perhaps brain-washed is too explicit a phrase, but for all intents and purposes they are, just as Creationists in other religions such as Christianity. Reason only exists when the wishes of the mullahs are followed---to the letter. There is a real and present danger in this following, and the wise amongst us would be well-advised to heed the signs.

Posted by e3954@aol.com at 4:27pm on May 5, 2009

There is an estimated 50,000 Lebanaese citizens with Canadian passports living permanently in Lebanon. In 2006 they all wanted to move to Canada, immediately, at goverment expense. After the trouble they all went back.There is no doubt that if Canada is ever in need of recruits for its armed forces, they will return in droves.

Posted by MichaelG at 5:15pm on May 5, 2009

What a lovely collection of the mentally ill you are assembling here First Post. Well done. No doubt in the 1930s they'd be spouting about Jews. How times change.

Posted by Fitzrovia at 5:45pm on May 5, 2009

Islam is a closed, tribal society that does not question. We, in the West, are an open society that does. I am a Catholic in that situation.

Posted by prziloczek at 5:54pm on May 5, 2009

For quite sometime I have viewed with alarm the willingness of Europeans to abrogate their culture to those of others. As if inviting a guest into your house is tantamount to handing over the deed. It is quite clear that any of these people would be more than happy to engage in espionage or minor forms of terrorism to satisfy their 'obligations' to jihad. If one delved into the background of many of those already in prison, one would find how simple it was to 'turn' them from a decent citizen of Europe into a fanatical jihadist. As is stated in the article, Muslims are loyal to Islam, not to the place they happen to stand.

Posted by suzann Dodd at 8:03pm on May 5, 2009

Any threat Islam may pose to Europeans is dwarfed by the massive assault on democracy we have imposed on ourselves: the EU. It's founders planned it from the start as a covert project to undermine democracy which they held in contempt. They, the self-appointed wise elite, were best placed to know what was best for us. Limits on expression have been increasing, with powerful Jewish groups pushing extremist laws such as the offence of mere denial of the Holocaust! Hardly surprising then that Muslims can demand laws to ban insults to Allah or their prophet on the grounds that freedom of expression is a farcical, fanciful fiction in today's EU. The EU has been destroying Europeans' values, national pride, freedom, independence, identity and democracy far more effectively than a bunch of Islamists could ever hope to do. Our nightmare is home-made. So called Islamic "terror" is a paltry, puny thing by comparison to the Behemoth in Brussels. Attacking a few synagogues, the occassional suicide bomber.. tokenism. Let's see these Islamists go up against the EU and live to talk about it!

Posted by Harlan Leyside at 8:56pm on May 5, 2009

Islam extended its influence widely from the wars and conquest of the prophet Mohammad in the 7th century. It is a relatively recent religion and originally tolerant of Jewish and Christian faiths but power corrupts and it has allowed the purity of the thoughts of the prophet to be misused to promote terrorism. Of course Europe should stand up for itself but it now lacks the moral fibre to do so and this will probably decide its fate.

Posted by Peter at 7:17am on May 6, 2009

I suggest Fitzrovia comments on the article not aim slights at other posters. I live in a northern town in the U.K. I once gave informal English lessons to a Kashmiri neighbour. Though him I was introduced to a young well dressed and very articulate Pakistani man who began to lecture me about the west, my own beliefs and so forth. He smirked at me throughout. I was a mass of contradictions in his eyes; inadequate in my reasoning, unable to give him an explanation for my views, lacking real belief, a typical western liberal. I felt this performance was put on for the benefit of demonstrating to my Kashmiri friend how the west was corrupted and false. (My Kashmiri friend, embarrassed, got rid of him.) Why he was there? my neighbour was an essentially simple hearted soul, unlikely to have such a sophisticate as a close friend â?? I do not know, but now suspect. All around us in the district at that time, on lamp posts, flyposters had placed notices urging all "true believers" to come to together. Meetings in Luton and London were advertised 'to understand true Islam'. "Planet Islam" featured strongly as a phrase. I encountered the word "kuffar" for the first time around the Christmas period: "While the kuffars dance and drink alcohol, the True Believers ..." and so on. One larger poster had a picture of an atomic bomb mushroom cloud emblazoned with the words "Bomb Israel" underneath in bold type. Then the B.N.P. got involved and their snide posters could be found also. A proxy war of words in extremist thought was fought out on the street. This was in 1991. Mr Major was P.M. Few people could have pointed to where Iraq is on a map, fewer still, Afghanistan. I want, and have worked for, better community relations. I came to understand that radical Islamists who have a hold over their communities will not co-operate in such projects and reject completely the basis of such relationships. Central government and local authorities have played along with this for too long. The majority must not be cowed by a liberal desire to give 'space' to the minority. Both have everything to lose in a world of 'relativity' which Ms Hirsi Ali describes from the stand point of one of it's victims.

Posted by Barry Larking at 8:01am on May 6, 2009

Think of Xtianity in its 16th century, the dominant temporal power until Henry VIII broke free for entirely spurious, if not salacious, reasons. The Reformation was still a century away and the Enlightenment a couple. Islam has never, can never, have a reformation since it is, solipsistically & solecistically, the final word and revelation of god. Those who think that religion belongs to the infantile era of humanity have a lot of work ahead to cure the believers of their deadly delusions.

Posted by allan kessing at 1:21pm on May 6, 2009

May the Almighty Allah bless you and forgive your sins. Now you must follow the five pillars well and with brothers and sisters as we say prosper well. I thank you

Posted by famulla at 6:03pm on May 6, 2009

The true malaise in Europe is that it has believed and followed the New World Order thuggery emerging from the United States - of which this article is a beautiful example of racism, bigotry and hatred. I'm stunned that The First Post gave space to this vile tripe.

Posted by neil mcgowan at 8:48am on May 7, 2009

Worth noting that the author claims to be Dutch, and is working for the American Enterprise Institute - an extreme-right American organisation which promotes New World Order propaganda.

Posted by neil mcgowan at 8:51am on May 7, 2009

neil mcgowan: You have clearly not heard of the author before, nor of her struggle against repressive Islam. There is no racism, bigotry or hatred in this article, I'm amazed you think there is, but you're clearly one of the chatterati who still believes in the failed dogma of multiculturalism, and equate any criticism of it as racist; there's nothing wrong with a multiracial society, but a multicultural society has potential for strife especially when there are such extremes as 21st century liberal democracy and 8th century theocracy.

Posted by Peter Simmons at 10:46am on May 7, 2009

Peter Simmons - you are denying that this woman works for the ultra-right-wing American Enterprise Institute, then? Or what is your empty blather claiming? She's just another tool of the New World Orderers - as you are yourself.

Posted by neil mcgowan at 9:09pm on May 7, 2009

What upsets me about this article is the phrase"die for" used repeatedly. Perhaps the author means "fight for" - as in join an army to fight and risk dying. Jesus died for us all deliberately - suicide bombers "kill for" a cause. As a Christian, I would not set out to "kill for" a country. I might "fight for" human rights in a peaceful way, and I might risk dying for our European freedoms. Europe has taken centuries to learn to live together, and the EU helps to maintain this peace, amongst other things. Let us all support those who are trying to live at peace throughout the world. It will take time.

Posted by Peter Robinson at 9:46pm on May 7, 2009

I think the europeans are getting a bit to placating to the muslims. The religion is a cult like every other religion including christianity so why do you think it's necessary to kowtow to these charlatans. Islam is oppressive in every form period, and should not be allowed to administer their oppressive,woman hating laws. It's bad enough I here Denmark is allowing the muslim areas to administer sharia law in Denmark? Is that right? You might as well let the taliban move right in without repercussion because that is what they are doing in essence. Not only that but with this kind of law comes child marriage, are you really going to let these people sell their 9yo daughters to an old man to marry? They are allowing child rape , that's all there is to it. Call me a bigot if you please but I tell the truth and no one can deny it.

Posted by JstNEarthling at 10:43pm on May 7, 2009

neil mcgowan, I'm not denying anything. I had no idea who she worked for and care less, she's entitled to make a living any way she chooses. You are the one who seems to be obsessed with the new world order mythology, next you'll be claiming she's a member of the Illuminati, go on, tell us what Nostradamus said about it. I'm fascinated to learn I also work for them, and there was me, having spent my life as an anarchist and green, thinking I was self employed. Just goes to show, you can learn all kinds of things here on First Post. At AEI, Ayaan researches the relationship between the West and Islam, women's rights in Islam, violence against women propagated by religious and cultural arguments, and Islam in Europe. They are a think tank, she gets paid to do research. I imagine she knows what she's talking about - do you? You say she 'claims to be Dutch', well she was an MP in Holland for three years furthering the integration of non-Western immigrants into Dutch society and defending the rights of women in Dutch Muslim society. Got a problem with that too? I don't think you can become an MP in Holland if not Dutch.

Posted by Peter Simmons at 11:00am on May 8, 2009

To even disagree with this article shows a total lack of understanding of Islam.There is no doubt that to believers Islam comes before country,simply because Islam is a country.Many people believe that Islam is not a religion and I am one of them.Islam is still were it was born centuries ago and should be left there where it belongs.We must show what we believe in,and not become frightend idiots hoping it will all go away!

Posted by ROBERT BOYD at 6:22pm on May 8, 2009

Ms Hirsi Ali is definitely Dutch and used to work as an MP for the liberal party (in my country liberal means according to the philosophy of amongst others Adam Smith, Alexis de Toqueville, John Stuart Mill), until she had to flee from intolerant neighbours. She was threatened to death by Somali muslims in 2002 because of her analysis of the prophet of islam. She got government protection but eventually they let her down for financial reasons. Also a cabinet minister from the same party betrayed her for reasons no political analyst has ever clarified. I am proud she lived in my country and I feel ashamed about how my government treated her. Now for Mr. Caldwells comment. His tourist observations about muslims in The Netherlands unfortunately do not find backing in official statistics about the huge numbers of immigrants from 3rd world countries (among whom muslims from Turkey, Morocco) who do *not* speak sufficient Dutch, whose children do not finish school, who are too unskilled for our labour market (considering the fact that lowskilled labour has been made extremely expensive for employers in our socialist welfare system). Even the 2nd and 3rd generation are 30-40 percent on welfare. Also these immigrants are vastly overrepresented in criminality and other deviant behaviour, destroying the quality and social cohesion of former working class neighbourhoods in towns and cities. There is no benefit whatsoever for the Dutch. On the contrary, the majority usurps tax money without substantial economic or cultural contribution. On top of the undermining forces for our society we have what Ms. Hirsi Ali and others have described: the raping of our core values, worded by Erasmus, Spinoza et c. by politicians who stoop for islamisation and ally with anti-Western immigrants because of electoral interests. This week the newspapers reported that presently the majority of the citizens of Rotterdam are immigrants from non EU-countries. Almost all of them vote for the socialist party. It is a nightmare. I wish Ms. Hirsi Ali all the best.

Posted by Bernadette DeWit at 7:53pm on May 8, 2009

Before one takes Ayaan Hirsi Ali too seriously, please understand her background. She started off as a Somali asylum seeker who falsely claimed she was the victim of a forced marriage, who was being compelled and threatened by her family memmbers to marry a cousin in Canada. She fabricated key details of her life story, and said that her family members were threatening her with a so called ''honour killing'' simply for walking out of a forced marriage. In reality, as a TV documentary on her life showed, she walked out on a CONSENSUAL marriage, and lied about her past in order to gain asylum in Europe. Her family helped her get asylum, even as she claimed they were trying to kill her. The reason she left the Netherlands was because the Dutch authorities stripped her off her Dutch citizenship when the magnitude of her lies came into full public view. Today, Ali is employed with the American Enterprise Institute, a right wing neoconservative think tank that helped to architect the failed case for war with Iraq. She has been on record as supporting a US led attack on Iran, and has called for basic freedoms for Muslims living in the West to be curtailed. In this light, her championing of freedom of expression and women's rights may seem quite amusing when bought into perspective with reality. There is currently wars going on in Iraq and Afghanistan involving Muslims and non Muslims. Of course religion is not the defining factor in either one - but religious differences do serve as a backdrop. The vast majority of Western Muslims have not picked up their bags and left, neither have they joined al Qaeda to fight against the West. For this, and assorted other reasons, the central premise of Hirsi Ali's contentions are as patently false as they are slanderous. Besides, given Ms Hirsi Ali's own record of something of a misfit in the Netherlands, where she was rather unceremoniously stripped of her citizenship, is it not a little rich for her to depict Western Muslims as a potential fifth column ?

Posted by SAS at 7:31pm on May 9, 2009

So Hirsi Ali had a discussion with Tariq Ramadan and she happened to ask him whom he would support if there were to be a war between Switzerland and Egypt. In other words, she gratuitously insinuated Mr Ramadan - a legal immigrant and law abiding Swiss citizen - was a fifth columnist. This is the same kind of mentality that led to the mass deportation and internment of hundreds of thousands of Japanese Americans during last World War on the suspicion that they were disloyal - even though the vast majority of them had NOTHING to do with the attacks on Pearl Harbour. Now Ms Ali accuses millions of European Muslims of being disloyal to their host societies. The only bigotry I see in the this article, therefore, comes from none other that Ms Ali herself. While we are on the subject on Muslim immigrants in Europe, let it be remembered that unlike Ms Ali, the majority are NOT bogus asylum seekers who fabricated their life stories to seek citizenship. Unlike her, they do NOT support the injustices of our time such as the invasion of Iraq or the threats against Iran. Most relevant of all, unlike Ms Ali, they have NOT had their citizenship revoked because they told lies about their past lives, and unlike her they have NOT been kicked out of their host countries the way Ms Ali was unceremoniously ejected from the Netherlands. So when Ayaan Hirsi Ali slanderously depicts Muslims in Europe as misfits, the similarities to the proverbial pot calling the kettle black are actually rather striking.

Posted by SAS at 4:07am on May 10, 2009

SAS: Do you believe all the misinformation you're fed? She became an embarrassment to Holland and its image as an overly liberal society, and politicians are ever gutless when standing up to rabid Islamists. I gather your first language isn't English, you certainly know little about the UK, or you would know that Western Muslims did indeed side with Al Qaeda when they bombed London, and then there were the large crowds of shrieking bullies burning Salman Rushdie's book and calling for him to be murdered, as also the Danish cartoonists and anyone defending them. Fascism, it comes easily to some. You are attacking the wrong person in your two posts. It really is past time when politically correct Muslim apologists take a long hard look at what uncontrolled immigration has done to European countries, and realise that if something isn't done soon, the far right - and every country has them - will surge to power on a wave of popular resentment, and eject Muslims, both good citizens and Islamist ingrates, from their shores. Your attitude is a stumbling block, encourages the hate-mongering mullahs and brings that day closer.

Posted by Peter Simmons at 1:43pm on May 11, 2009

Let me respond to the overtly intolerant comments by Bernadette DeWit. If immigrants in the Netherlands are, by her own account voting for the socialist party, then by default that means than a good number of them are naturalized and active in the politics in the Netherlands. So if they are active in Dutch political life, how can she and her ilk claim they are not sufficiently ``integrated''. Furthermore, the Dutch recently elected a Moroccon Dutchman to the position of the Mayor of Rotterdam, and there are plenty of Dutch people of Moroccan and Turkish heritage already active in politics. None of this fits into the notion that immigrants have not ``integrated'' into Dutch society, and one fails to see how they could be active in political life if they did not speak the language adequately or if did not have a good education in the first place. Likewise, if the good Dutch lady has any hard statistical evidence of immigration causing criminality we would be curious to see them - and I do not mean the statistics that she quoted that may have been made up in her head.

Posted by SAS at 2:28pm on May 11, 2009

To Peter Simmons - I only spoke the FACTS about Ms Ali - she is a fraudulent asylum seeker who fabricated just about every single detail of her past life in order to obtain residence in the Netherlands and associated herself with the most reactionary segments of Dutch politics who openly detest immigrants and campaign on the basis of what could be regarded as a neo-supremacist agenda. Please learn to accept there are people with different points of view than your own. The statements about immigration, Muslim and otherwise are factually wrong. The majority of Muslims do NOT support al Qaeda ( no reason to ) and immigrants has made huge contribution to contemporary Europe as we know it.

Posted by SAS at 2:33pm on May 11, 2009

I do not agree about what SAS says about Ayaan Hirsi Ali. She only used her fathers name to enter the Netherlands, she did not fraud! She joined the reactionary side because on the left side she only found "politically correct" people who did not want to even THINK about the fact that muslims could be harmful to the constitution or society as such. It is not said that muslims do all support Al Qaida, but they will choose sides of muslim fellow believers ever before choosing the 'other side'. So far for unbiased thinking and, more important, acting...

Posted by willem van kruijsdijk at 4:06pm on May 11, 2009

I think people underestimate the magnitude of Ms Ali's fraud. She claimed she was fleeing civil war in Somalia when in fact her family brought her up in middle class comfort in Nairobi. She claimed her family were abusive fundamentalists who in fact, made it a point of sending her to one of the finest schools in the city which explains her excellent English. She claimed she was not physically present at her own wedding, an account refuted by multiple family members. She claimed her marriage was forced when in fact she met her husband, gave her consent for the marriage and agreed to move to Canada with him. She claimed that when she walked out of her supposedly forced marriage, in fact a consensually arranged one, her family tried to kill her. In fact, not only did her family meet with her on at least one occasion to amicably end her marriage, but they actually helped her obtain asylum. Sounds like a pack of lies to me. So you see the irony - unlike her, the majority of today's immigrants to Europe neither fabricate their life stories, nor do they make their living by fomenting intolerance and supporting neoconservative war pundits like the American Enterprise Institute.

Posted by SAS at 5:22pm on May 11, 2009

On multiculturalism - the UK is multicultural, and this is a good thing. English is multicultural, as it incorporates words from different languages, and is growing as an international language precisely because it can be adopted by different cultures. The number system used in the UK is a Hindu-Arabic-Jewish pot-pourri, and without it our technology would be impossible. Our traditional food comes from all over the world, including fish & chips (Italian). Most of the movies come from Hollywood, USA. And Christianity is also multicultural, since the Sea of Galilee is not in the Lake District... The only thing that I, and the majority of people in the UK, insist on, is that the secular courts are where criminal justice is done, without any sneaking off to Sharia criminal courts. This is a non-negotiable position for any country which wishes to remain a country. On Moslems - about 2% of the UK population are Moslems, the overwhelming majority of whom are decent citizens, who care about things like family values and community values - it's a pity that more people don't care about these things. Only a very small minority form the 'crazies', and these are the people whom the media likes the most - they make the best TV and press. Empty churns make the most noise. On The Caliphate - it isn't going to happen. The UK is the way it is because, small issues apart, it is how we want it. Apart from a small minority, again, nobody is going to consent to be governed by Sharia. We have our own secular law and body of human rights, which are based on our religious law, which is in turn based on the New Testament, and this is how we are governed. As far as a worldwide Caliphate goes, can you see Lebanon consenting to be governed by Saudi Arabia - or vice versa? And who would the Caliph be, given that they are supposed to be the successor (Kalifah) to the Prophet Mohammed? Osama bin Laden?? People are deliberately stirring things up - making out that the UK way of life is disappearing. Well, they can just stop.

Posted by Francis King at 8:13pm on May 11, 2009

I was shocked and surprised then I received your daily update this morning. The article by Ms. Hirsi where she warns about the danger of Europe "falling" into the hand of the "evil" Muslims who "do not share" the same view as "us" was a reminder of the articles I read about the Evil Jews destroying the life of the "good Germans" from the history books. I am not a muslim, never been and will never be either, I do not believe in practising any religion what so ever, but in the statistics of people like her, I am counted as one of those dangerous individuals who do not share the values she represents. I have been fighting against religios extremists all my adult life, but I can not stand idle when I read such nonsense in an online paper that I respect. Today we live in a society that it is OK to use the kind of language she is using to criminalize millions of individuals for the act of a few extremists. I really wonder if the FirstPost would dare to publish an article with similar text? How about just changing the word Muslim to Jew, Islam to Judaism etc to see how offending this so called "opinion" of Ms. Hisri is. I have done the work for you and wonder if you can see my point, I have changed the text slightly keeping it as close as possible to the original article to highlight the disgusting "logic" used in this article. As an Iranian who was forced into exile over 25 years ago I know the danger of fanatic Islam. I lost several of my best friends during the 80s who were killed by the regime in Iran and myself sat in the notorious prison Evin in Tehran for several months. But that does not mean I would classify every Muslim on this planet as my enemy and criminalize 100s of millions of people the same way Ms. Hirsi tried to do in her article. The extreme and dangerous picture that Ms. Hirsi and her likes are putting in front of us is nothing other than the image the fascists of Germany were creating in the 1920s and 1930s of the Jews. We all know the outcome of those ideas and I fear your co-operation to now only publish such disturbing message, but also putting it on the front page of your daily published news e-mail make you part of this disturbing and dangerous movement who will create the same atmosphere that led us into the Holocaust. I believe the FirstPost owes an apology to it's readers to publish such a nonsense. http://www.abdolian.com/thoughts/?p=2748

Posted by Farhad Abdolian at 11:28am on May 12, 2009

Francis King - Merely by stating 'the UK is multicultural, and this is a good thing' doesn't make it so. Your examples of language, food and numbers are meaningless, and have nothing to do with multiculturalism, which leads me to doubt you understand what the term actually means. Multiculturalism means different cultures existing within a society as equal to the macro or host culture; that includes values, language, attitudes, religion, ethnicity, habits, dress and ways of parenting. It means the existance of ethno-cultural ghettoes, remember Bantustans in South Africa where people with different cultures were supposed to exist and develop separate from each other? It was called apartheid and was finally demolished, if not in every instance, then intellectually. We have been creating Bantustans here in the UK under the creed of multiculturalism and friction between different communities has already broken out a few times and will again in the future. Immigrants are in effect told 'No need to become British, come and live here just as you would at home, benefit from our developed secular society whilst criticising it and practising your 8th century religion and attitudes, it's your right'. No wonder some of them have become vociferous condemners of everything we hold dear. Britain has thrived on imports of culture, food, religion, dress and arts for centuries, we embrace it and absorb it, which is why some curry dishes created in the UK have been exported to India, and Chop Suey doesn't exist in China, having been invented in the US, another country which has embraced immigrants. But the important thing for national cohesiveness is that all who become citizens accept the prevailing attitudes and culture of the UK. If anyone hates what we stand for, they shouldn't have come here and should leave to live somewhere they will fit in better. Current estimates of the percentage of UK population which is Muslim are 10%, and if that doesn't worry you, I don't know what would since Muslims seem to have huge families and few believe in birth control. There are already a number of UK-wide Islamic organisations, including; the Muslim Council of Britain, the British Muslim Forum, Tablighi Jamaat, the Sufi Muslim Council,the Islamic Human Rights Commission, the Conservative Muslim Forum, the Mosques & Imams National Advisory Board, the Muslim Association of Britain, the Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK, the Islamic Society of Britain, the Muslim Parliament of Great Britain, the Muslim Educational Trust. Why do any of these organisations exist? NO other ethnic or religious groups have this level of alternative separation, think about it, the Muslim Parliament of Great Britain, when do they plan on taking over? When our animal welfare laws are scrapped to accommodate halal butchery, and when female children can be married under age to cousins in the 'home' country, yes, the UK way of life is disappearing. You stop and think.

Posted by Peter Simmons at 11:55am on May 12, 2009

Farhad Abdolian, you're wrong, and considering your experience of extreme Islam, I'm surprised you are so sanguine. There are huge differences with Germany and the Nazis; the Jews were not strident in Germany, quite the reverse, they had lived there [and in the rest of Europe] for many centuries, were Germans, respected the law, and were quiet about their faith as were other people of faith then. They were picked on by fascists and blamed for German suffering in the depression, which they were also the victims of like all other Germans, but harsh times can make people less critical, and scapegoats are sought, too many fell for the fascist con. The Muslims are entirely different, they choose not to integrate, but instead set up their own structures and institutions within a host country - it's the same throughout Europe. No one would have minded if they had done what all immigrants have done throughout the ages; integrated, even adopted anglicised names, made strenuous efforts to become British, after all, why else did they come here, to rip us off and send the money 'home'?Do they intend to stay or is this temporary? The attitude of disdain too many Muslims exhibit over British women's freedom and behaviour irritates everyone while they keep their own women under the thumb. And they have been encouraged by the chatterati who dreamed up multiculturalism and still defend it. It is leading us to a situation of inter-ethnic strife, and will ultimately risk allowing in the extreme right, and then we will be in a dark place akin to Germany before the war.

Posted by Peter Simmons at 12:12pm on May 12, 2009

It is refreshing to see so many forumers helping to refute Ms Ali's defamatory nonsense. I think I have already pointed out the lies and fabrications on the basis of which Ms Ali - or shall I say Ms Magaan, her real name - based her rise to political stardom. I have met Somalis who are quite catagorical in telling me her purported life story, especially the part about her family trying to kill her are mere lies. I have always held the best way to refute slander and racist ideas are with the help of hard facts and documented realities. In this light, refuting Ms Ali's incitement need not only focus on pointing out her Uncle Tom status. For instance, she accuses her Muslim compatriots of failing to respect basic European values of democracy. Well, try this, in the Netherlands they have at least two ministers in the national cabinet of Muslim heritage, one Moroccan, one Turkish. In fact, a Dutchman of Moroccan background even was popular and respected enough to get himself voted mayor of Rotterdam. Unlike Ms Hirsi Ali, they did not fabricate their life stories, they stood up against racism and intolerance to get themselves prominent positions in society, and they are now powerful and influential. I do not think this kind of political success would have been possible if the had refused to accept European values, nor do I think their success plays into the Muslims-reject-European values schtick. Look across Europe, you will find some of the most prolifically successful immigrant politicians are actually Muslim. In Germany they recently voted a Turk the leader of the Green, they have close to a dozen immigrant politicians in the national parliament - mostly Turks. Likewise in France Sarkozy recently appointed a Muslim woman as one of his leading cabinet members and in the UK they have dozens of minority politicians - at least four of them Muslims. They have even had Muslims in the European Parliament - none of this would have been possibly if they rejected European values. One of the equally fallacious, if pervading myths is that Sharia law is round the corner in Britain. Well try this - one survey showed that 13 percent of British Muslims favoured this type of law. So if Muslims are 3 percent of the overall population, then do the arithmetic - the proportion of the population that favours Sharia amounts to a little over one third of one percent of the total British population. Even when one sets aside the fact that many of these Sharia supporters are not politically active, the fact remains that the likelihood of the UK authorities changing their laws to appease such a small group is next to negligible. What is neither negligible nor debatable is the contribution minorities and immigrants of ALL stripes have made to contemporary Europe. Many immigrants are highly educated and resourceful and bring skills that their host economies need bady. A large part of the reason post war Europe was able to recover economically was due to the supply of cheap plentiful labour from places like Turkey and South Asia, and the second generation of these immigrants are contributing as never before - in Germany alone there are well over 60,000 businesses founded by Turk alone employing over 300,000 people in a country with endemic unemployment, and in the UK Asians are some of the richest people, with one in every 200 Pakistanis a millionaire. Immigrants are here to stay and are as much a part of the future as they are in the present. Misfits like Hirsi Ali and her supporters - Simmons et al can cry their hearts out but this is a reality that is inevitable.

Posted by SAS at 7:13pm on May 12, 2009

Simmons, has it ever occurred to you the reason there are so many ( legal ) Islamic organizations in the UK is actually because there are many British Muslims who happen to know their rights under British law and who understand that by virtue of one's minority status you are entitled to form an organization of any genre - from a singing group to a religious/political organization to a support group for sick people. This is one of the fundamental rights of people living in a democracy. If you see this as a right that should be taken away, then it is you, not immigrants you seem to love to bash who fail to accept Europeann values. Equally, the fact than a particular community has many organizations serving its needs does NOT mean they have failed to ``integrate'' -- whatever that is supposed to mean. In the United States they have literally hundreds of organizations speaking on behalf of Asians, Jews, Hispanics, Arabs, and African Americans, and all these groups play a key role in national life at all levels.

Posted by SAS at 7:20pm on May 12, 2009

"All this is met with grim silence and rationalisations that it's not really anti-Semitic but anti-Israel." Many of the Muslims in question are Semitic themselves. And what's the history of anti-Semitism among non-Semitic Muslims? Where there's Muslim hatred for Jews, its due to Israeli politics. I'm bewildered to see a thriving community who are still busy arguing otherwise, for no apparent reason. Further, the "who would you die for" line of inquiry is surely absurd in the extreme. Isn't the whole 'nation state' fetish out of fashion yet? Come on, it's been dragging the human race down for centuries. If Tariq Ramadan finds greater consolidation with an international community with whom he shares moral and intellectual values, rather than the nation state in which his economic existence is played out, good on him. Contrary to the mindless speculation of clueless lunes, nation states are far more likely to clash and with far more devastating effects than are disparate communities with discordant ideologies. All this paranoid junk about Muslims will become a pathetic distant memory once real disagreement resurfaces among the nation state dinosaurs.

Posted by Rohan Moore at 12:43am on May 13, 2009

I am one of the 'lucky ones' an atheiest. I have no objection to Muslims since I have known many who just want a quiet life. But in return for their life in the UK they must take note that it is a Christian Country who is known for its tolerance of other faiths. But no way should a Sharia law be allowed. the UK has an excellent legal system which has to be obeyed and respected by all its inhabitants. Full stop. I live in South West France where there are some muslims living also. They are a very quiet bunch of people. If anyone stood up and dammed France he or she would be deported without delay. France brooks no argument. The British should follow this example. If its hard to deport crazzies of any religion then change the law and remember human rights go both ways. Also remember that the ingiginous Britains should be considered first. For the Uk is their Country and the others are the by the good grace of the British. Do I sound priggish, well I too am a child of immigrants and my family always remembered their debt to Britain.

Posted by Bettina Mills at 12:13pm on May 21, 2009

There are obvious reasons why Ayaan Hersi Ali wrote this article, and no need for elaboration. But, I would like to ask my fellow human being in Europe. Why European's values are more superior and the rest of the world's values are inferior? Is that European are the best and the rest of the world should fellow them.

Posted by Yaasiin Yuusuf at 6:22pm on August 30, 2009